Tuesday, March 27, 2012

You Can't Take the Sky From Me: Finding a Biblical Perspective in Firefly

Much could be said in the criticism of the works of Joss Whedon most especially when it comes to religion and Christian faith (River's scene with the Bible comes to mind). This won't be one of those articles as we're about building bridges here. I am willing to concede (as one of the articles states) some credit to Mr. Whedon for at least including a (seemingly) Christian faith in Firefly and having it play a large role.

Not to mention I love the show "Firefly."

If you haven't seen the show, go beg, borrow, buy or Netflix (haha, not steal!) the DVD box set, and watch the companion movie "Serenity."

Finished? Good.

Probably one of the best things about the show is that it is pretty realistic in some ways. Sure technology has advanced to an extent, but human nature has not. This show is an excellent example that no amount of technology can eliminate humanity's main problem - our sin nature.

Though I really like the show, one (of the many) things i wished they could have explored is religion and its role in the 'verse. There is a great opportunity to explore Christian faith in this series (one of the characters is a preacher, another is an apostate "Christian") I personally even think that though it's not obvious, a Biblical view of how God works can be discerned. Whether Mr. Whedon meant it to (or wants it to) or not.

The brief overview of religion in "Firefly" is this. Buddhism. Atheism. Some sort of institutionalized, Catholic-esque structure, run by the shepherds and somewhat respected by the Alliance (government) and regular folk. And some sort of immature Christianity, as practiced by one Captain Malcolm Reynolds.

The shepherd/Catholic-esque (Not to bash Catholics) structure could warrant further study. Whatever it is, it isn't necessarily Biblical Christianity, although they make use of the Bible. There are many examples of this, usually through something Book says, or the case of a shepherd sharing the Word with prostitutes only to take advantage of them for payment. In any event, like Christianity now, not all who minister within the shepherd structure are truly Christians.

Here are some interesting articles on faith as practiced in the 'verse.





How is it possible to get a glimpse of a Biblical model in this show of brigands, sinners and space hookers? Through Mal Reynolds of course. Ol' Capt. Tight-Pants spends pretty much all of the series in what appears to be an atheistic funk. The reality though, is that he seems to be more angry with God and cynical for "letting him down" than actually in disbelief.

The show opens in the midst of a civil war, the Alliance (core worlds with wealth) vs the Independents (the outlier worlds, with little wealth). The Alliance wants to control everyone's life, and the Independents just want to be. Mal is fighting in this war and hoping for a miracle. He kisses a cross necklace, perhaps indicating that he's praying to God and expecting God to hand him victory for the battle and the war.

His hopes are destroyed with the arrival of a massive Alliance ship force. The war is lost and so is Mal's faith in God. What Mal didn't seem to realize is that God is sovereign, not a cosmic vending machine. Something many Christians (including me) and even non-Christians sometimes fail to realize. The following passage highlights that God accomplishes His own will.

Ephesians 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Proverbs 16:1 - 4

1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord. 2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits. 3 Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established. 4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Actually, the whole Bible is about God accomplishing His will, we humans can either choose to be part of it, or not. This article highlights many passages that specifically state God works out His own will.


Unfortunately for Mal, this means he ends up on the losing side of the war for independence. What Mal doesn't realize is that perhaps God had other plans for him. I wonder what would have happened had Mal's side won the war. In losing though Mal became captain of a spaceship. Had it not been for this, he never would have gotten a very important chance.

Enter passengers Simon and River Tam.

Long story short, the episodes of Firefly deal with Mal engaging in criminal behavior and sheltering the Tams from the law. During these adventures, his stance on God changes little, if at all. He does retain some moral code, as he takes odds with Inara's services as a sort of geisha (sometimes prostitute). Whether this is because of moral reasons, or he loves her could be debatable.

It's not until the movie "Serenity" that the captain really hits rock bottom (though losing the war would count too). He runs out of places to hide when the government sends an assassin to acquire River. Stuff happens, and Mal is left with nowhere to hide and no obvious option other than giving up. That's when things finally look up. God usually puts us into an impossible situation before He does His work.

Some of these include:

Leading Israel out of Egypt (Exodus 12 and after)

Joshua and Caleb trusted that God could deal with the giants in the land. (Numbers 13 and 14)

The book of Judges is filled with stories of how God did impossible things against the odds.

David and Goliath (1 Samuel 17)

All of the impossible acts culminate in the virgin birth, life, death and resurrection of His Son Jesus Messiah.

It turns out all this time, River had huge secret. That is, the Alliance had tried to make people docile through a chemical in the air, only to have it back fire. Most of the people on this particular moon became so docile they just gave up and laid down, while the rest went insane and began raping and pillaging the planets as Reavers.

Mal sucussfully sent evidence of this across the solar system. While this didn't overthrow the Alliance, it did deal them a huge blow, possibly one with a greater impact than the Independents winning would have.

Not to mention, this is something that perhaps might have been God's will.

Ephesians 5:11 - 13

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

1 Corinthians 4:5

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

At this point, we could see how Mal not only served God's will but also how God did help him to gain an impressive victory over the Alliance. It wasn't in Mal's timing, or how Mal expected God to act, but undoubtedly one could see how God could conceivably have been at work. It's also possible that Mal's faith was restored, or at least the groundwork is laid for that.

Further reading:



I do think that Firefly is a pretty accurate view of what we could see in the future, if the Lord tarries. Who knows if Jesus will be here tomorrow, or in another 1,000 years. If humans ever do make it anywhere in space before the Lord comes (which i doubt) this is what it might look like. Though, we may be contained only within our own system.

But how could we know about prophetic events in the end times, that all mankind will know about?

Though i think it may be poetical (and I am taking it out of context perhaps) this passage does indicate that we can never run away from God, or escape His reach. Even if we make it to the planets, or even other stars, God can still reach us.

Obadiah 1:4

Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord.

Wednesday, March 21, 2012

Ruffling Feathers: Quetzalcoatl the Winged Serpent

In dealing with the matter of a possible appearance by THE (or AN) Antichrist in April, according to the Torah code, there is one candidate that must be considered. That's Quetzalcoatl.

And good reason too, some believe that the Mayan calender (and other sources) point to his "return" in 2012. There's Daniel Pinchbeck (psychadelic drug user) who wrote a book titled something to do with the return of Quetzalcoatl in 2012. Actually the book was more about his exploration of hallucinogins (which led to horrific spiritual encounters) and his overuse of the words "partner" (for a girfriend/boyfriend/wife?) and the word "magnate" (his partner's father).

But i digest.

Quetzalcoatl is indeed an interesting figure. There is a bad 80's movie called "Q: The Winged Serpent" that should have appeared on MST3K, but didn't. Interestingly, Star Trek features a "Q" who has taken a serpent form at least once.

Quetzalcoatl is featured heavily in South American Indigenous myths, as well as having a counterpart in Cherokee myth as the feathered rattlesnake. He may also make a good candidate for the individual the Hopi are looking for as well. I won't get into the other ones right now, they may not be exact fits, but you can bet they're close enough. Let's stay focused on Q.


My first encounter with Quetzalcoatl was in the mists of elementary or middle school. It was in relation to the arrival of Cortes, and that the Natives thought he was their "god" Quetzalcoatl. I recall the description in the book including that he had crosses on his clothes. Needless to say, this made me wonder if Jesus a post resurrection appearance in America.

I don't know whether or not Q actually was associated with crosses or not, but someone has made that connection. It doesn't seem common, but it does appear occasionally.

"Not only is the cross itself a familiar object in the art of all nations, but the veneration for it is an essential part of the religious life of the greater part of humanity. It is a common symbol among the American Indians--North, Central, and South. William W. Seymour states: "The Aztec goddess of rain bore a cross in her hand, and the Toltecs claimed that their deity, Quetzalcoatl, taught them the sign and ritual of the cross, hence his staff, or sceptre of power, resembled a crosier, and his mantle was covered with red crosses." (The Cross in Tradition, History and Art.)"


(Yes, that is a New Agey link, be careful)

It isn't too far of a stretch for the Biblically illiterate to then make the jump and conclude that Jesus appeared in the New World, and that they just called Him Quetzalcoatl. This is a perfect set up.

Not only will this lead many Natives to accept a returning serpent being as God, but many other Americans of all stripes as well. Mormons already believe Christ visited here post resurrection, so Quetzalcoatl could easily sell himself to them. New Agers also will be looking forward to his appearance as well for other numerous reasons.

But is it any wonder?

2 Cor 4:4 - 5

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Corinthians 11:14 - 15

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Thess 2:3 - 14

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Antichrist will be revealed as the Bible says. He will (in my opinion) be accepted by some as Quetzalcoatl, by Buddhists as the Maitreya Buddha, by Muslims perhaps as the Mahdi and by Jews as their Messiah. And all who accept him and give worship to him will share his fate.

Revelation 19:20

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Looking to any of these as a god, or putting our hope in this (these) beings is a huge mistake. Only Jesus Christ can save us. Repent of your sins, and believe in what Jesus did on the cross, and that God raised Him from the dead. Now, there's still time, but once the Antichrist is here, in whatever form he takes, it may be too late. It certainly will be too late once Jesus Himself comes back and sends deals with Satan/Antichrist.

Acts 2:21 - 24

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Further Reading


(the wiki "feathered serpent" article linked in the Quetzalcoatl wiki article has an interesting thought linking Q to the planet Venus, which I believe is sometimes associated with Satan.)

Work it Out Man: Do Christians have to Work?

If you're like me, you probably don't like your job. It's not that i don't like to work, i do, but what i do is rather boring. Not to mention, that my work history has alot of failure in it. I've recently discovered why, but that's a topic for a different day. Still, i want to work, but i want to do something interesting, and not get hassled for just being me.

On the other side, and i could be wrong, but there seems to be some Christians who think they shouldn't have to work. I'm not talking about doing ministry or missions, that is indeed work, I'm talking about Christians who (I may have long ago thought this way) thought I shouldn't have to work. As in supporting themselves through labor.

I don't know how prevalent this idea is, but there are Christians, who are fully able, not working. Sure, we're in a bad economy, but sometimes, we just have to take a job that's beneath us. After all, Jesus Christ did. He washed His disciple's feet. As God, He became a man, definitely something "beneath" His interests, so that He might elevate us who believe. He died a humiliating death on the cross, so that we who repent, believe in His payment for our sin and His resurrection can be with Him forever.

To you Christians, who think "i've been called by God to not work," God (via His Word, aka the Bible) has some choice words for you (and probably me too). It's kind of lazy perhaps, but here are some Bible passages related to work.

Certainly there are situations in which a person is unable to work (ie widows/orphans) and those people are to be treated in a different way. This message is for those who are able. This has nothing to do with salvation, or rewards for good works, but is just about the unpleasant reality we must all deal with. This is hardly all the Bible has to say about work, but it should be sufficient for us lazy folk.

2 Thess 3:6-15

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.


John 13:1-17

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.

Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.

If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.


Matthew 7:2-3

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Proverbs 6:6-11

6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:

7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,

8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:

11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.

1 Timothy 5:3-15

3 Honour widows that are widows indeed. 4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God. 5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. 7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless. 8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. 9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, 10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Thursday, March 15, 2012

Code Cracking: Torah Code Predicts Messiah in April of 2012

It's come to my attention recently that some adherents to the Torah Code are expecting the Jewish Messiah to come in April of 2012. Amazing. Apparently, this was discerned through the Torah code (think Bible code) which uses ELS (Equidistant Letter Sequence) which finds "hidden messages" in the Bible's original texts. I've found this intriguing in the past, but more or less dismissed it.

In any event, a number of sources indicate thats what folks are expecting.





Here's maybe the best example:

"Based upon this above Bible Code Theory, the First of Two Raptures could happen on Easter Sunday = APRIL 08, 2012. and then Antichrist declares himself on the world scene say three days later. AMIDST THE PANIC, CHAOS AND FEAR. On this time-table, Antichrist has enough time to teach his religion, deceive the nations and sign his peace treaty with ISRAEL and The Muslim World."


Of course this site mentions an "apocalype" and has some basic theology problems (like not understanding where Mormons are wrong theologically) but hey, the Torah code!

The Jews have a saying, i forget where i read it, but it goes something like: "if you are planting a tree and someone says 'the Messiah is coming' finish planting your tree, then go meet him." Wise council. Of course, i already believe the Messiah, Jesus Christ has come and will return again soon.

First instinct would tell us that IF any individual with decent "signs and wonders" that he would likely be the Antichrist, however many people would be expecting that. So perhaps it's a fake antichrist, supplanted by the real one which may make people think the Real Antichrist (who displaces the April one) is really the Christ, when he's actually not.


Regarding any individual with Messiah-hood claims, we know not to trust that they are not the Christ. If anyone says the Messiah is this person, or that, or even that the Messiah has come, we are not to believe it. Jesus Himself told us to expect it, and not to believe it!

Matthew 24:24 - 27

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

We are also warned that those who do not accept the truth of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection and repent of their sins, will be deceived by the Antichrist. At least that is my understanding of this passage. In all liklihood, the unsaved will accept the Antichrist as a god, or as the Messiah. Don't let that be you!

2 Thessalonians 2:7 - 12

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And all who accept any coming messiah, the Antichrist, instead of Jesus Christ the true Messiah, shall share the fate of the Antichrist. A one way ticket to the lake of fire as seen in Revelation 19:20. If anyone comes in April 2012, presenting themselves as messiah, or being presented as such, they are not.

Turn now to Jesus Christ, repent and accept Him as Lord and savior. Then, when He does come back, He will take you and i with, and we won't have to rely on a false christ or another person to tell us about it.


Dr Heiser has some writing on the Bible codes, and how they are kind of bogus. You can start here. I haven't read much on it, but I'd say he'd be a good place to start.


Thursday, March 8, 2012

Urgent Prayer Requests

I don't like to do this a lot, but where 2 or 3 are gathered...

I have a few people I know with cancer, and it seems like the treatments are working only so-so.

My friend from school, his mom has cancer, and he knows I'm praying for her. She underwent some treatment, improved slightly, but now seems to be taking a turn for the worse. Please pray for her recovery, and salvation of my friend through this miracle. And pray in whatever other way you feel lead.

Another acquaintance of mine, her father had cancer years ago, and it has recently come back. Similar prayer as above.

Lastly an elder in my church has been "fighting" cancer. Not sure what the update is, but just keep him in general prayer.

I haven't shared names, but God knows who they are.

God has been good answering prayer around me, but I think I'd like to share this burden.

Monday, March 5, 2012

Is Israel...: Dissecting Dispensationalism pt 3& 4

The Nation of Israel

Dissecting Dispensationalism pt 3 & 4

My original plan for this series had Ezekiel 37 and the Jewish opinion of the nation of Israel as separate articles, but I think they may be more intertwined, so they're being combined. I suppose that's sort of cheap, but who doesn't love a bargain?

I have touched on Ezekiel 37 in this article:


My opinion, more or less, is that it takes place after the Millenial rule of Jesus Christ, but I am more than willing to move that position if I'm wrong. I am reading through Ezekiel again right now just to make sure.

It's relevant to mention, because some people believe that Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled as evidenced by the existence of the current nation of Israel and Jews living there. Netanyahu (the great theological expert, oh right, prime minister) has been quoted as saying this is fulfilled because there is a nation of Israel. There are also some within the body of Christ who believe this as well.

Ezekiel 37 outlines how the children of Israel have been recovered from being "dry bones" (a dead nation?) And have been restored, presumably as a nation.

But 1) is this true, and 2) is the current nation of Israel "legit"?

Verse 14, God tells Israel that He will put His Spirit in them and while God's Holy Spirit was given to those who believed in Christ at Pentecost and believers ever since, the Nation of Israel and the Jewish people as a whole have not yet received the Spirit. Just like anyone else who has not repented and accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they won't be able to receive the Spirit until they do.

As you read on in chapter 37, there are indications of a full restoration even to the point of the two kingdoms (Judah and Israel) being re-joined into one. They will have a king (a resurrected David,or will it be Jesus as Gabriel told Mary? I have to do more study. My money's on Jesus) on the throne. Ezekiel 37 ends with the Lord telling us that the nations will know He is the Lord.

While people from many nations know and acknowlege the Lord, the collective nations and people of Earth seem to reject this at present. Those things together
(and other things in that chapter) tell me that Ezekiel 37 has not been completely fulfilled YET.

Notice that as Ezekiel is prophesying, the bones are restored sequentially. First, the bones come together (Jews coming to the land), then they get muscle (military victory, 1948, 1967?), then they get flesh (comments on that?), and after having flesh, they sort of come alive. Then they realize they lack God's Spirit and ask Him for it.

My opinion is that the nation we know as Israel is partially (even a good deal) through this process and God is working with the nation of Israel (or the devout Jews within the nation) and will ultimately fulfill His promises. But they are not there yet. The bones have perhaps been gathered together, perhaps they have some muscle now, maybe they're getting skin, I don't know. But i do know they are not done with this process. I don't think they're yet crying out for the Spirit. I don't know for sure though.

Another thing that makes me believe this, are rumors i have heard that Israel is a secular state. Perhaps some do claim Israel to be a "Jewish" state, perhaps their government claims this too. But do they mean Jewish as in an ethnic identity? Or do they mean this as a spiritual identity? Is Israel a Jewish state in the same way that "C&E" Catholics are Catholics? Or the same way there is a Polish state, or a Japanese state?

Future Quake has often referred to Israel as a secular state, which is how I came to that conclusion as well, and i haven't been able to find anything to "officially" to corroborate or refute that position.

This article indicates that Israel seeks to become recognized as a Jewish state, impying that they really aren't yet.


This article states that a certain sect of Jews (Satmar Jews) reject the current nation of Israel as it is secular.

"The Satmar oppose the modern State of Israel because it is a “secular state” and not one endorsed or established by God. They believe that only the Messiah can restore the nation to the Jewish people, and that in this nation all Jews will practice Torah and follow the Lord."


Reflecting on this Jewish opinion for a second, the fact that some Jews believe that only the Messiah can restore Israel is interesting. It certainly isn't unbiblical. Peter expected Jesus was going to set up the Kingdom after He was resurrected (Acts 1:6) and Jesus (as Chuck Missler says) told Peter to mind his own business about when He will do it.

It certainly raises some questions about the "legitimacy" of secular Israel. (People using the Star of David to argue Israel's legitimacy should rather look to this theory instead) This also sets up Israel and the Jews to accept the Antichrist as Messiah should someone reestablish a "completely restored" Israel in the near future. Afterall, he will counterfeit Jesus.

On the flipside of course, the "book of knowledge," (as the Gilberts say) wikipedia considers them a "Jewish and democratic state."


Anyone who can clarify the official position, and what the definition of Jewish state actually is, please do so.

My bias, speculation and opinion (again not a solid opinion) is that for Israel to be considered a "Jewish nation" (at least on a superficial level, in the eyes of Jews and the Bible), they would have to reestablish the Mosaic covenant as the law of the land. This would require a third temple, or as some speculate a new tabernacle.

This view raises some questions though, as God no longer requires animal sacrifice on account of what His Son Jesus Christ accomplished in His death and resurrection. But then again, there will likely be sacrifices offered in the Millenial Kingdom.


To be a truly reestablished Jewish nation of Israel, the Jews (and Israel) would also have to be living in a kingdom of Israel reestablished by Jesus Christ after He returns. The kingdom won't truly be reestablished until the return of Jesus Christ.

Regardless of the current "Jewish-ness" and legitimacy of the nation of Israel, or whether or not its counterfeit as some claim, it has a right to exist as a country (by virtue of the fact that they have filled out the right UN paperwork that other countries have to do) but I also believe it is there because God allowed it to be there.

And the only reason I can think of that God would do so is because it suits His plan to have a nation called Israel there. So for anyone in the counterfeit Israel camp, don't get too bent out of shape even. Whether you are right or wrong, God is still in control and has ordained that this Israel exist, and there's nothing you or i can do or say on the matter outside of engaging in friendly scholarly debate.

Psalm 22:28

28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s: and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 47:7-8

7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. 8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.

Regarding Israel, Ezekiel 37 seems to only be partially fulfilled, rather than completely as some say. Accordingly, some Jews, some Christians and the world in general think that present day Israel may not be legit for a number of reasons and some think it should go away. Rest assured, God is working and will fulfill His plan for Israel and the Jews and will restore the kingdom of Israel at the proper time, when the rightful king, Jesus Christ, comes to claim His throne.

The Messiah came once to fulfill the scriptures regarding God's plan for salvation and forgiveness of sins, initiating the time of grace for you and I-the gentiles. He will come again to restore the kingdom of Israel for 1,000 years before finally doing away with Satan and ruling the world forever! (Revelation 19-22)

Until that time, we still have a small window of time to repent of our sins, ask God forgiveness by accepting His gift of salvation and taking Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior of our lives.